Curse

djbartek · Feb 10, 2007, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

The name "Lift Enchantment" doesn't sound like a hex to me?

But for AN it did. If you don't remember, Lift Enchantments WAS a hex (during NF Preview Weekend) that removed enchantment every time target foe was knocked down(until they nerfed it to its current lame state; and I don't think they did it because of its name(Moebius-Hoto)).

- djbartek

Zuranthium · Feb 10, 2007, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Hidden caltrops is pretty lame IMO. You need a shadowstep to make use of it because you need to catch up with your target in the first place.

Every single character I make has a spear as one of their main 4 weapon sets. Switch and throw.

Aside from that, the skill is meant to be used in conjunction with other things really. I don't think it's a skill for a standard melee Assassin. The problem is that AOE spells like Searing Heat still suck so there currently are not any builds, individual or group, that can make great use of Hidden Caltrops. The skill could be quite good though, in conjunction with other things in the game that also need to be improved.

~Z

Seamus Finn · Feb 11, 2007, 09:08 AM // 09:08

If this is really going to be sent to anet....

I think the problem with assassins is the whole manner in which their chains operate. They are inflexible and/or fragile. This causes their bars to be cluttered as well. If a major overhaul of the class was to be made, I think that attack chains should be reworked so that the attacks function like any other attack skill in the game, but if followed in the correct order give bonus damage, conditions, etc. For instance, twisting fangs could cause deep wound and bleeding, but if followed by an offhand gives the +damage and hits twice(most duals could follow this system). It would take a lot of work to rebalance the skills but it would give sins far more flexibility and thus see much more action in high level pvp. As it is, if you get hit on a blind during an offhand, its 10 secs before you can even bother to try your dual as your offhand is recharging. Getting an attack dshotting in a skirmish is even worse. This doesn't even address how illogical the whole thing is. An assassin is a master of bladed weapons and is very deadly... unless he misses the lead attack, then he just falls to pieces and can't hit a blind man afterwards(why I have no clue... fragile self image?)

If this was to be completely ignored, I would like anet to at least make the golden line/aod more comparable to the black line/shadowprison since these would still be the only viable options for gvg(outside of some strange build I have yet to see). The cost reductions already mentioned would be more than fine for me, although just making golden pheonix 5 is satisfactory. 30 energy for tele, bleeding, deepwound, and a quick way out vs. 20 energy for a tele, 60% snare for 5 secs, bleeding, deepwound, and poison(and I believe 1 or 2 more damage). This is not a fair trade, especially considering that the golden line forces you to wear energy armor(yet another downside). AoD at 10 is enough to keep the wars away(thankfully), but at least give back the 5 energy gold pheonix. The 4 attack string capable on AoD was far more inflexible adn probably less dangerous than the shadow prison counterpart anyhow, so I see no reason not to put it as it was.

Lord Oranos · Feb 12, 2007, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Id rather have Shadow Refuge be remade as such:

For 4 seconds, you gain 5...9 Health Regeneration. When Shadow Refuge ends, you gain 20...68 Health.

The "while you are attacking" part is hard to fulfill, you can use a longbow, but then again your target could move out of range even then.

I had a thread on buffing this skill long ago, but people were making a fuss that it might actually heal good then. Tbh, even with the nerf, this skill still cant compete with Feigned Neutrality. Ive cranked shadow arts up to 12(yes I can still kill things), and I use the SoH+Deadly+Feigned combo just like I did before.

Sax Dakota · Feb 12, 2007, 01:24 AM // 01:24

I don't know...I've read all the suggestions, some I like. But you are already buffing a class that is very formidable in pvp as it stands. Some one that can kill a monk, ele, caster etc in one chain.

I see that you are trying to get some of the other skills to be used more, so that we might have a better variety of assassin skill bars. I think that you should probably un-buff some of the more used skills instead of buffing ones that are not used that often.

Shendaar · Feb 12, 2007, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Un-buffing the good skills won't magically make the weaker ones worth using. While some of the skills are pretty good now, there are still a high number of them that could use a little buff.

Seamus Finn · Feb 12, 2007, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sax Dakota

Some one that can kill a monk, ele, caster etc in one chain.
.

This is probably the most common and flawed logic about assassins. Any of the "instant kill" chains are at least 4 attacks. I can run a warrior and bring 4 attacks. When they charge, if I unleash them on a 60 armor level target, guess what? If no damage mitigation occurs or the target is not heal, the target dies. I didn't need to be enchanted. I didn't need to hex the target. The order I could basically do what I wanted as well, as long as the deepwound was not on the last attack. I haven't tested this, but I am quite certain a dervish can do the same. However, bringing 4 attacks on a skill bar makes a tight bar that is capableof little else. I am not concerned about the 4 attack chains because they are generally bars for weak players or that require outside support(and if this is the case it is even rarer that the sin bar was teh best choice to bring support for). I personally just want a bar that is comparable to the burning arrow ranger in terms of skirmishing ability combined with usefulness at the stand. I don't mean a cloning of its exact utilities, but something more comparable than what is offered.

Makkert · Feb 12, 2007, 09:20 AM // 09:20

The threadtitle is so funny that I'm not even going to bother reading the OP.

djbartek · Feb 12, 2007, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

The threadtitle is so funny that I'm not even going to bother reading the OP.

Next ca_aok... -_-' Seriously, why the hell do you post here if you don't want to contribute anything? If you are getting constantly owned by SP-BoA sin, then go whine to "Shadow Prison" thread.

And BTW, one question to Zuranthium:

Should be able to follow any melee dagger attack or melee assassin skill.

What do you mean by melee assassin skill? If I'm not wrong, these skills don't have any "markers" like dagger attacks, so how these skills would "follow" them?

- djbartek

Zuranthium · Feb 12, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

The threadtitle is so funny that I'm not even going to bother reading the OP.

Awesomeness. I love a good, open-minded person!

Quote:

Originally Posted by djbartek

And BTW, one question to Zuranthium:

Should be able to follow any melee dagger attack or melee assassin skill.

What do you mean by melee assassin skill? If I'm not wrong, these skills don't have any "markers" like dagger attacks, so how these skills would "follow" them?

I'm not sure what you mean. They would simply code it to make it work. If you attack anyone with a dagger, use any dagger skill on someone, or use a melee Assassin skill like Shroud of Silence on someone, skills like Mantis Touch and Blinding Powder should become "unlocked".

~Z

frojack · Feb 12, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by djbartek

...why the hell do you post here if you don't want to contribute anything?

Perhaps because he thinks making the Assassin class over-powered is a bad idea. Which is all your doing here...

The assassin is pretty delicate balance wise and some work could be done here and there (Good call on Wastrel's Demise for example, if still in need of work), but your kind of Rambo-buff job is a little silly...

Oh, and by the way, a DPS comparison of an assassin and a warrior is pretty pointless. Only a really rubbish sin will sit around and pound on an opponent for more than 10-15 seconds. The class excels at spike and gank, not melee- Thomas the Tank-engine.
Additionally whoever made the comment about warriors running in and killing crap first time like an assassin needs to remember adrenaline doesn't work like energy...

(Temple Strike... You serious?)

Zuranthium · Feb 13, 2007, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Perhaps because he thinks making the Assassin class over-powered is a bad idea. Which is all your doing here...

The assassin is pretty delicate balance wise and some work could be done here and there (Good call on Wastrel's Demise for example, if still in need of work), but your kind of Rambo-buff job is a little silly...

It would help if you gave specific examples of things you believe that were overdone in my skill update. Vague, sweeping statements won't help us come to a better concensus about what improvements the Assassin needs.

Although it's important to remember that buffing up all these skills doesn't make the Assassin insanely powerful. Buffing all of the Lead attacks Assassins have, for example, doesn't increase their overall power in comparison to what they can already do. Firstly because Lead attacks currently suck, but also because these skills aren't the type of things that build on top of each other and lead to some overpowered combinations.

It's like looking at the Warrior weapon skill lines. If Warriors were underpowered and every single weapon line got a buff, it wouldn't suddenly make Warriors insanely powerful since they can only really use ONE of those skill sets at any given time. It's similar for an Assassin. Buffing all of these things that I am suggesting doesn't suddenly cause crazy results and it's because of the way Assassin builds synergize. You can't just carry 5 Dual Attack skills; it doesn't work like that.

Assassins need variety. I think a big problem right now is that when you face one, you are KNOW that one two situations will occur - (A.) you'll have to deal with a Shadow Prison spike, or (B.) you won't have to worry too much about what they are going to do since there simply ISN'T any other Assassin build that really compares to the overall threat of a strong Warrior or Dervish build.

I think PvP is the most interesting when you have to adapt as you play. For EVERY class, there should be SO many viable builds available that your team should never really be able to simply look at an opposing team's build or any single class and immediately know what is going to need to be done to counter what they can do (to a certain extent, of course).

~Z

Priest Of Sin · Feb 13, 2007, 03:45 AM // 03:45

jeez, attack of the 500ft posts...

frojack · Feb 13, 2007, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Okay, here's an example...

Beguiling Haze...

Right now this skill provides unstoppable dazed condition. at 14 Shadow Arts the condition lasts 7 seconds. With the addition of a set of Silencing Daggers, that can be increased to almost 10 seconds. So what do you do in a team match? You put a mesmer on one monk and send your Haze guy after the other followed by whatever melee train you like (Grenth, Shock War, Shadow/Burst Sin etc.).
Now this Sin isn't really there for damage, more utility than anything else. He has B. Haze, Jagged Strike, Exhausting Assault, and whatever other devilish crap you want on him (Augury of Death, Caltrops perhaps? Whatever). So what do you end up with? unstoppable Dazed instantly covered by Bleeding, (un-removable exhaustion if they try to cast in panic) followed by some ungodly melee gank.

Sure you can do this anyway but with your change to a 15 second recharge, that caster if left untreated will have around 5 seconds after the Dazed wares off (if they are still alive) before he get's hit again by the same deadly chain. I'm pretty sure no other class can do this. On top of that, you want to make it cheaper to...

The Assassin has a huge amount of offensive utility. If most Naruto wannabe's didn't only care about dealing omg!11 awesome damage, we would all see how friggin' dangerous Assassins are...

Sax Dakota · Feb 13, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

This is probably the most common and flawed logic about assassins. .

I'm not sure how its flawed. I know for certain that I can take out an unaware caster target in 4 hits or less.....

I totally agree with Frojack. There are some builds that you just don't see very much of. I personally like using Shroud of Silence for a change once in a while. Any skill which disables their spells, and leaves my attack skills up is a Very good spell indeed. There are many sin skills which go unnoticed. Which is why I'm not sure why we need to buff any skills that the sin has. The sin is already VERY formidable.

BahamutKaiser · Feb 13, 2007, 11:20 PM // 23:20

All classes have effective builds. The issue here is overall use, and skill opportunity. Beguiling Haze is great, combines the power of daze with a reasonably frequent Shadow Step. But it requires an elite, and doesn't remedy the weakness of Dark Prison and Deaths Charge.

Assassins killing power is totaly balanced, his quick damage application is balanced by his low defense and combo vulnerability. Problem is, his killing power depends on his skills alone, his static offensive and defensive capabilities are little more than a caster, in combination with melee requirements, it makes him equally vulnerable as a caster, so when a large variety of his skills arn't effective enough to compensate, it is a serious balance flaw.

A Shockwave or SF Elementist is a powerful foe as well, does that justify the weakness and ineffectiveness of DoT spells? or weak AoE coverage?

This isn't an Assassin problem only, it is a reoccuring problem with every class, dozens of skills out of use. The issue here is the diversity of skills in use compared to other classes. In Assassins case, it is most certainly the least variety and effectiveness, unless Ritualist beat it.

Assassin has an accute offensive capability, but he also has accute weaknesses, it is a simple and reasonable balance. People assume that because Assassins can kill quickly that all is justified, well that's just standard for the class. He can also die quickly, great against casters, and most vulnerable to them as well, easily spiked to death in a flash second. Assassins ability to enter battle instantly is a neccessary and interagal part of the class, it needs to be on it's opponent immediatly, and it should be able to do that more than once a minute.

Assassins deadlyness also requires a coordinated combination of skills, further limiting his arsenal and skill options, more effect for more cost. In a build like this partially effective skills simply cannot compete. The fact that Assassin has some effective shutdowns also promotes the balance of effective alternatives like stances for protection. Making something like Wary Stance a very significant counter; Against an Assassin who lays down his attacks in 3 seconds, a quick stance can turn a lethal coctail into energy management.

The issue with alot of skill weakness, through several professions, is skill function, often not often enough, and sometimes not powerful or effective enough.

Lets take Paragons claimed overpowered Restoration ability. Is it overpowered? or is the counter underpowered? If you use Vocal Minority on a group of shouters it could be devestating, officially overcoming the so called broken state of mass motivation. Why isn't it effective enough?, because it doesn't cover earshot range like the effect it is trying to counter, chants, and it can only be used half as often as the effect it is trying to counter. If it could be used at 20 seconds, or even 15, one or 2 copies of Vocal minority, covering earshot range, would give group restoration parties a challenge and punish them for relying to heavily on a particular effect.

This is why I appreciate the testing phases so much. Because the common balance action is nerf whatever advantage comes into play, when those advantages could be addressed with improved counters that way such advantagious skills are not nerfed under their cost and common usage demands.

Trying to nerf and restrain abilities to fit in current metagame standards continoually limits the diversity and in so, the experience of combat in the game. In order to grow and evolve into an even better game, developement needs to be focused on making battle more elaborate and complicated, not limiting every radical factor to fit in a simple and enevitably boring metagame. As a game which sells new features on frequent intervals, it is a neccessity for sales and satisfaction, if your expecting the game to remain static than your being nieve, it will have to change in the process of growth, and a good alternative would be diablo 2 or some other game which is no longer being developed and expanded.

I am hoping by the next chapter that Anet will have the neccessary experimentation and developement to redevelope some of the exsisting yet unsatisfactory aspects of the game, as well as provide equal counters to radical effects so common use can be protected. For example, Shadowsteps are powerful, in order to counter shadowstep builds a ritualist or Ranger spirit can be produced to prevent shadowsteping on an environmental scale, countering several builds, or at least punish and weaken their usage. Chant Synergy is too effective, so widespread and frequent chant debilitation can be improved and expanded. DoT damage isn't sufficient, along with AoE coverage, so DoT damage can be improved and AoE can be widened, along with a more viable counter to elemental damage and DoT.

This is the way it should always have been, instead of limiting the radical use of abilities til they are hardly worthwile in regular builds, radical counters should be made to prevent radical use. It is a simple and obvious effect. You can compare the use of Chants and Shouts, against the counters Vocal Minority and Roaring Wind and see that this isn't the case, which is where the alteration should be occuring, but people only see the skill and not the game and profession as a whole, which is why we keep getting so many poor accusation and nerfs.

Diddy bow · Feb 14, 2007, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

... there should be SO many viable builds available that your team should never really be able to simply look at an opposing team's build or any single class and immediately know what is going to need to be done to counter what they can do (to a certain extent, of course)...

oh look a rit its camping on its spirits ¬¬ suprise suprise

Anyway i think the lead attacks need a buff "skipping the lead" is too much the norm now.

Zuranthium · Feb 14, 2007, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Okay, here's an example...

Beguiling Haze...

Right now this skill provides unstoppable dazed condition. at 14 Shadow Arts the condition lasts 7 seconds. With the addition of a set of Silencing Daggers, that can be increased to almost 10 seconds. So what do you do in a team match? You put a mesmer on one monk and send your Haze guy after the other followed by whatever melee train you like (Grenth, Shock War, Shadow/Burst Sin etc.).
Now this Sin isn't really there for damage, more utility than anything else. He has B. Haze, Jagged Strike, Exhausting Assault, and whatever other devilish crap you want on him (Augury of Death, Caltrops perhaps? Whatever). So what do you end up with? unstoppable Dazed instantly covered by Bleeding, (un-removable exhaustion if they try to cast in panic) followed by some ungodly melee gank.

While that sounds nice, you have to look at how much energy it currently costs to Daze/Jagged/Caltrops/Exhuasting someone (35) - and it's all taken away by a by a draw condi. For 35 energy, I think there are already harder locks in the game that you could put on a Monk.

~Z

djbartek · Feb 14, 2007, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sax Dakota

I totally agree with Frojack. There are some builds that you just don't see very much of. I personally like using Shroud of Silence for a change once in a while. Any skill which disables their spells, and leaves my attack skills up is a Very good spell indeed. There are many sin skills which go unnoticed. Which is why I'm not sure why we need to buff any skills that the sin has. The sin is already VERY formidable.

Want to know why this skill is unnoticed atm?

Let's make then short analyse of 2 serious imo cons of this Elite:

1) This skill disables your own spells for 15 sec, which is usually twice as more as the inability(by this fact you are in even worse situation, I will explain later why) of your opponent to cast spells. Yes, it leaves your attack skills open, but for that 15 sec you are almost completely defenseles: your utility is disabled(Siphon Speed, Expose Defences etc...) and, what's more important, you completely lose the ability to self-heal(Feigned, Shadow Refuge, Heart of Shadow- all of sin heals are spells; of course you can take non-spell heals like Healing Signet, if the fact that it's hazardous on a sin doesn't bother you). If you don't have a monk in your team, one SP-Boa sin(there are LOTS of these things nowadays) can easily make you kiss the floor(hey, your Feigned is disabled!); not mentioning other stuff like wammos(will you fight wammo 1vs1 without self-heals?) and old new Water Trident Eles(welcome in KD hell).

2) It's a hex, which makes it hardly useful in any competent GvG(ever heard of Divert Hexes?). Also, like I mentioned, it doesn't disablefoe's spells; it makes him inable to cast them. And that means that one divert from second monk(you didn't forget about second monk, did you?) can easily "unlock" target foe's spells again. On top of that, your spells ARE DISABLED, so if the situation I described happens(which probability is quite imo high, knowing that Divert Hexes wiped Hex-heavy teams from meta), you get no benefit from it; not mentioning that you are left with nice, unremovable 15 sec "no spells for you".

Sorry man, but I don't think that 30 sec recharge is justifying for this Elite, if we take into account not only its pros, but also its big cons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frojack

Sure you can do this anyway but with your change to a 15 second recharge, that caster if left untreated will have around 5 seconds after the Dazed wares off (if they are still alive) before he get's hit again by the same deadly chain. I'm pretty sure no other class can do this. On top of that, you want to make it cheaper to...

Two words: Blinding Surge.

And I think that any further comment is redundant.

- djbartek

Zuranthium · Feb 16, 2007, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priest Of Sin

jeez, attack of the 500ft posts...

This makes me laugh every time I see it. I don't know why, it's just a funny mental image.

~Z